About Shambhala Prison Community

The way to accomplish a great endeavor
is with tremendous relaxation.
— The Ven. Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

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The Ven. Dzogchen Pönlop Rinpoche Addresses Volunteers

I've been working with Bill [Karelis] and other people here in Boulder with the Shambhala Prison Community, and I've also been to a few--what do you call them?--Federal facilities in Colorado and also California. It was a very profound and wonderful experience for me to be with the inmates--for us to talk to each other at the most basic level of being human. I see no difference between myself and the people I have been talking to. One of the most important things that we need to do is to communicate with all levels of people, all levels of beings, no matter whether we are talking to an emperor, a dictator, a guru (so to speak), or inmates, or people in hospice. They--and we--are all the same. We are all the same as human beings. We all go through the same experiences of suffering, of samsara, as well as happiness, temporary happiness within samsara. We could communicate with everyone and anyone from the basic level of being human, having that sense of basic seed. And we don't have to try to change ourselves to be nicer, or to be more profound.

The Ven. Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche

When we sit here in the Shambhala Center, we are surrounded by walls. When we sit in Federal facilities, we are likewise surrounded by walls. There's no difference. We are sitting in front of each other and talking to each other. That is exactly the same as we do in Federal facilities, hospices, or an emperor's banquet (laughs). I feel that it is very important for any one of us who are volunteering to develop communication, and to help each other of whatever status to communicate at the most basic human level. There's a fundamental sense of dignity in human existence--or any being's existence, from the Mahayana point of view. And so developing that basic community, that basic sense of community and communication I think is very important, key. The reason for this is that most of the time either we feel a little nervous or we try to be very kind, extraordinarily kind, and to work better by creating a certain atmosphere. Isn't that right?--you try to sit better when you're sitting in front of a student, inmate, or whomever, much better that you sit at home. That shouldn't be there, you know. You should be more honest, natural, direct. Then a whole different avenue of doors is opened up in our communication. There's a sense of honesty, directness, relating to the basic ground, not at all from the level of superficiality--superficial kindness, compassion, love, or profundity. That's what we don't need.

I have been talking to many people with terminal illness, terminal disease. They come to me, and the first thing they say is, "Rinpoche, I'm dying." That's what some of them have told me: "Rinpoche, I'm dying." I could not help but to laugh, to burst into laughter (laughs). Why? Because we are all dying. There is no difference between the person sitting in front of me, who is terminally ill, and myself. There is no difference from the Buddhist point of view. We are all dying. We are all dying regardless of whether we know when we're going to die or not. I've seen in my life that people who have been sick for a long, long time may actually die much later. They may live much longer than some young and healthy person who has been helping them. I have seen this. Sometimes the young person dies first.

And so I said to this [terminally ill] individual: "What are you talking about? We're all dying. We're all dying, and you are making [dying] something special for yourself. You can't personalize the whole idea of impermanence. It doesn't belong to anyone; it belongs to all. And in a similar way, I think, being in a Federal...what is it called?...facility (laughter) is not much different than being in samsara. Right? We are imprisoned within the walls and units of samsara from the Buddhist point of view. If we really look at our mind, there is not much difference. How much more freedom do we have than people in Federal facilities? Not much. We think we do have much more freedom, but freedom is very conceptual, isn't it? We think: "We are free, and they are not free." We had the experience in India that a Canadian organization came to help a certain village. In this village women had to walk every day for two or three kilometers to fetch water. The village did not have water facilities. The Canadian organization came and said, "Oh, we will bring water to your village." They gave aid and brought water pipes to the village. Then everyone had a tap at home or nearby and didn't have to walk three kilometers to fetch water. That is our idea, the Canadian organization's idea, of helping and freeing women from their slavery work.

The next year the organization sent some people to survey their work and see how it's going. And they found that all the pipes were broken completely into pieces, with no water at all coming to the village. Back to square one. Again the women were walking their three kilometers to fetch water. Then, secretly, [the Canadians] asked people what happened. The people said that the women themselves had broken the pipes. Why? Fetching water was the only time that they got to go out. that was the only time they got to go and socialize with other women friends, and do some women talk, while the husbands do their little men talk. That was the only time. And so the Canadians had, in fact, taken away their freedom, their space, their only time to go out and have some refreshing air outside their home.

Sometimes, you know, the concept of help is very interesting. We really need to think carefully and see what this other person needs: what really helps the person, rather than what we think is helpful. We cannot really project our own ideas of goodness, help or freedom on others. We have to study and see the details of what they actually need. So therefore, in our work - whether that is prison work, chaplaincy in prison or in hospice or hospitals - I feel it is necessary to communicate with that person at the heart level. Iêve spoken with some of you here, as well as with hospital chaplains earlier this year, [and having done] so, my main concern is [for us] not to impose anything, but in fact to let [the clientele] decide what their curriculum should be: to let them decide how they want to lead themselves on the path. All we are doing is trying to facilitate (laughs) their need, like the Federal government is doing - to help them find out what they are looking for. Of course, we can share our opinions, our idea, but those opinions and ideas should not be the definitive guideline for the people to follow. The only person who can speak for oneself is oneself - we cannot [speak for the other person]; I cannot, definitely. Therefore, I feel it is necessary to find out what they are seeking, to connect with their heart level, and to provide whatever we can--meditation, meditation instructions, and materials to read, to listen to and to relate with. You know all of those thing we can do. We can provide for whatever their needs are. If they're asking for advice, you can give them your advice. If they're asking for suggestions, we can give them our suggestions. By developing a way for them to find out more for themselves, from their heart, then their striving becomes much more effective--much more effective than us going in with a certain idea of a curriculum they should follow. They have too many curriculums at Federal facilities to follow; they don't need another one.

But they definitely need guidance. And that we can provide, guidance. As a great master, Krishnamurti, said in his book: the only thing that the teacher is doing is pointing out the door. He is saying: that's the door. If you walk through you will find yourself in another realm of experiences. And he said, it's up to the person whether he walks through that door or not. Right? The teacher can't push him (laughs). That's a little violent, isn't it, if you start pushing people through the door?

It seems that it is our responsibility is to point out where the door is when they're looking for the door--door of liberation, door of freedom, door of exploring further the nature of mind and body. Further than that, I think, there is not really much we can do, no matter whether we are in a Federal facility or outside. It is the same--even sitting in the Shambhala Center in Boulder, Colorado. The only thing that the teacher can do is point the door, point out where the door is. It is up to the person whether he or she is willing to walk through and take the first step.

I feel that every one of you has been doing wonderful, wonderful work in different areas, especially in this case relating with the Federal facility inmates community, where they can find some more information on mind and body, how to relate with mind and body, which is what we are trying to provide. You have done a wonderful job. It is a great opportunity for ourselves as practitioners to engage in such action because this is the real action in which we can manifest our practices, strengths and weaknesses. We find ourselves put right on the spot. Then we have to deal with [the situation] directly, without much choice. So this is a really wonderful practice--working in prison communities, hospitals and hospices. All of these are very important places to work in as a practitioner. I really appreciate your work, your heart connection, your courage, your time and effort, and especially Bill, who's been working very hard for many, many years to develop this, with help from many other sangha members from Boulder and throughout the country. I really appreciate all of your efforts and all of everyone's efforts which make this possible.

Question: You spoke of visiting people who were terminally ill. They were dying, and they voiced to you, "Rinpoche, I'm dying," and your reaction to that was to laugh, and [to note] that they were personalizing their own view of impermanence.

Rinpoche: Right.

Q: And it's obvious that that would be helpful to cut through. In working with prisoners I'm curious how to find a balance, because it seems that, if in some way we don't honor that their situation has some kind of uniqueness to it, it might be hard to communicate with them. And yet they may be really overdramatizing their situation...

Rinpoche: Un hmm.

Q: But somehow if we aren't willing to go along with that a little, we may lose them in the communication. I'm just wondering if you could address that a little more--how to bring people out of that kind of personalized thing about their own drama into a more universal appreciation of samsara that we all share.

Rinpoche: First of all, I think it would be worth contemplating on the similarities between prisons and, say, monasteries. You know? Is there so much difference (laughs)?

Q: There's a few differences.

Rinpoche: Yeah, you're not wearing the same robes. And we don't have a unified practice curriculum [in prison]. Or, the emphasis is not practice. That's the difference. Other than that there are many similarities, as we are all living in an institution within samsara. In monasteries also, [as in prisons,] you can't leave the boundaries. If you want to go beyond the boundaries, you have to ask the discipline master or the abbot. You know, it's very similar. And the cells are quite similar. They're small, crowded sometimes. And the food that we get from the monastery sometimes is not really nice, not particularly delicious, but very low key, working with contentment, so to speak. There are very many similarities between the two [i.e. monasteries and prisons]. So the only thing you need to do is to switch your perception, to take this opportunity and say:

"Look, this is like a monastery. It's like a retreat. It's like a three-year retreat." I think if you can switch [like] that, I think it's very similar for a Buddhist. For a non-Buddhist I think it's different; but still, if you look at Catholicism or any other religious tradition, they have similar systems of monasticism. In the Catholic tradition, [the monastic tradition] is also pretty tough and a pretty tough life.

And so, prison and monastic communities are very similar, if [prisoners] can relate with that principle of taking the opportunity--having free accomodations, free food, free laundry service, and everything. It's really nice in some sense. Yeah?

Q: Rinpoche, I can...

Rinpoche: And also telephone bills.

Q: ...having been in prison, I can certainly appreciate all of that. A lot of volunteers going into prisons, however, are lay practitioners who may not have three-year retreat experience or monastic experience.

Rinpoche: Um hmm.

Q: So it may be a little hard for them to communicate that in a [real] way. It just sparked in my mind that it would be great if we could get more monastics involved in prison work.

Rinpoche: Um hmm.

Q: Like Ani Rinchen here who is doing prison work.

Rinpoche: Yeah, wonderful.

Q: And it seems like there's a natural connection that monastics would be able to relate to in a very direct way with prisoners.

Rinpoche: Um hmm. I think it would be nice for them, for monastics to talk about how the life in a monastery is. Just to talk about it. Don't have to compare and say, look, it looks like here, but just to talk about it. [The prisoners] will know. Inmates will find out for themselves how similar it is.

Q: Thank you.

Rinpoche: But generally speaking, you know, from the Buddhist point of view, we are all bound in samsara. We're in the boundaries of samsara, right? So there is not much difference between inmates and outside. The real idea of freedom is not there [in samsara]. No one has this freedom. We all have some kind of fake perception or idea of freedom, which we think is missing when you're inside the facilities, whether it's a Federal facility or a monastic facility.

Milarepa Journal

The Ven. Dzogchen Pönlop Rinpoche Addresses Volunteers